Oh Dear !!, Here we go again !!

The Reverb shop in leicester is in such terrible area, a lot of people dont even want to walk down there. its certainly not a good basis for success in this industry. it should of been the first to go in my opinion.

House of cards?

Oh dear here we go again !!! - is there more to come
I know this store from the old Academy of Sound days and it nearly produced a 2 million turnover at it's peak - Maybe like the Shefield closure it was not the best place in town for the business, but nevertheless it was a long established location for a music shop, being there well over 25 years - Sheffield produced nearly a 1.5 million turnover a its peak - Both stores where the major players in the town, so there is no reason why a healthy profit can't be achieved with a good team behind it - Desire and ability appear to be 2 big issues for the Reverb senior team

Its a shame that they could not stay open up until Xmas as it would be a good time to sell some gear , Leicester is a big city and needs a shop like reverb.

a shame that stores close but if they can't compete with online retail (where most people actually end up buying stuff these days) it's no wonder really.

The value of bricks and mortar is fast diminishing, why people cling to the idea that shops are good (and more importantly profitable), I will never understand. There is a legitimate case to have a shop, but only as a small window into a much larger online business.

Niether Sheffield nor Leicester will mourn the loss of Reverb, the consumers will simply gravitate online.

It makes far more sense if you actually want to be profitable, to be a lean and agile business that has as few overheads as possible, and lets face it running a shop has a huge overhead in time and money for very little ROI.

Oh Jack.....you know, I had a response all worked out to your posting, but actually, I really can't be bothered now I've come to it, I doubt very much whether you'd get it anyway...

Yes Jack, I am coming very much to the same point of view as you. I have done many years both in retail and wholesale. It is becoming clearer and clearer that online is the way to go

How many retailers are now shop windows for the e-tailer? Even a small shop is an expensive exercise let alone adding staffing costs. It seems to me that many customers are not even supporting their local stores in buying small goods. String prices online are at rock bottom prices..

My thoughts are for the staff who are now looking for work - good luck to them all.

I think 'Jack' has chosen the wrong time to pipe up with his opinions. I disagree that having less people in worthwhile employment is a good thing.

My heart goes out to the staff of all the Reverb stores!!Any one could see this was going to happen! Bricks and mortar do have a role to play in this, namely the Property Game!This was the aim all along..............
The staff are all some of the best around and i hope they get the jobs they deserve with people who will listen and invest in the right products and keep shops alive!
We all want to see guitars in shops not online where no doubt sharks like Jack take great pleasure in seeing true hard working people lose their jobs!
Any fool can get a laptop,be cheap and become a ebayer! is this real retailing...............keep the skilled people in jobs and the industry would be better off!

Well I don't normally spend time on these comments, but I'd love to know who Jack is....I've never heard such a load of rubbish. Maybe he can't run a profitable bricks and mortar store, but plenty of us can. And of course without bricks and mortar stores, there would be very little internet business to be had.

OK, its my opinion. But you can't employ people if your business doesn't make any money.

@pat It isn't worthwhile employment if the company isn't making enough money to make the employees payroll.

@richard Oh, and I wasn't dropped as a child. I just see things for what they are.

A business is only as good as the money it makes, and retail stores just don't make money enough money to justify the number of staff required to be successful. Thats not to say there aren't exceptions that prove the rule.

Also to make it quite clear, I am not belittling the achievements of the staff. I am well aware it takes a brilliant team of staff to make a store work.

What I am saying is the Bricks & Mortar model is becoming less and less relevant to the vast majority of consumers and to dwell on past greatness, does nobody any good.

Then Jack you know as well as I do that the failure of a business is nothing to do with it having a shop front or not. Trying to force the blame of failure with such a reason is a very naive outlook with very poor understanding of how the MI industry works.

Get a grip Jack.........

Continuing the thread Jack inadvertantly started, and speaking as the owner of a profitable bricks and mortar establishment, is it merely coincidence that a number of major and minor suppliers are suddenly beginning to realise the importance to their brands of bricks and mortar? Oh, and have you ever tried getting a set of strings out of your computer at five on a saturday just before you head off to a gig...? And those internet guitar set ups are so unreliable...! Cheers then...

Once again the MI prove the point I have always made. I have a successful business in IT/Telecoms and only by chance came to work with the Music Trade.

No matter how obvious the truth is the MI always take the stance "well this is how it has been so far so it must be good". I am not proportioning blame for the failure of the store.

What I am saying is that for Bricks & Mortar to stay relevant moving forward, as industry we need to move away from the Bricks is Best theory, to a more pragmatic approach to retailing. I do remember saying in an early post that there is a legitimate reason for the Bricks to be there and that is to make those sails as Chris rightly points out that couldn't be completed just before a gig, and to allow customers to try guitars and instruments, this is invaluable to customers. But you can't get the business through the door without a good respectable web presence - OK there are exceptions but these exceptions are fast disappearing.

The general consus I have always got from the MI is that the internet is bad and there are too many idiots selling on eBay. Well ask yourself this question Why is it that nobody is challenging them?

@Richard : I am well aware how the industry works, and I was not proportioning blame for the failure of the store on anything in particular (as of-course I aren't privy to all the details).

@Chris : Major suppliers are realising, not how Bricks & Mortar is important. But how important competent and good shops regardless of size, have a huge impact to there reputation and therefore sales.

Even if I am taking all the heat for what is my opinion, I never asked anybody to agree. I am glad for once at least some the MI are having a somewhat frank and open conversation.

I have never subscribed to the theory that the internet is bad, only that the attitude of some etailers is bad, or maybe smug is a better word (as can some bricks and mortar folks be) and I have rarely felt threatened by it. I truly believe there is a place for both....none of us have a right to peoples money be it on the high street or the e street (see what I did there?). Those who are good at their business will survive on the street or the web, those that aren't won't...anyone remember Make Music (high st) or Sounds Musical (interweb)....!!! There is room for us both.

Jack. on the subject of bricks and mortar, would you like a shovel to continue digging yourself out of this ugly little hole.

I agree with jack that it is good we are talking about this here. otherwise, he is barking (mad AND up the wrong tree).

Look at any figures you can find and internet sales of MI are AT BEST 15% of bricks and mortar sales. (That's the figure researchers quote for white gods). Actually, internet sales for Mi are probaly about 5%.

That's not to say that internet sales aren't growing and that we don't need to be careful, but we need to be realsitic about this.

talking of realistic, check out Jack Tans website - he's a guy hoping to (maybe already is) making money out of the internet.

Conflict of interests?

Certainly

This has nothing to do with internet vs stores. This is to do with the Reverb business and another store closing down because, really, the boss has no idea about retail. If anyone else had the Sheffield and Leicester stores they would have made a good profit, but not under the Reverb title.

Jack. Sails belong on a boat. Sales are made in shops.

Well, it's a joy to see that debate on this issue has been so vigorously engaged. It goes some way to providing a forum for discussions which are vital for the future health of our industry. Incidentally, I still detect an underlying prevalence of the view that, somehow, (i) MI needs to be either physical or virtual, and (ii) e-tailing cannot be high value, high service, and most profitable.
Let's agree to keep the debate alive? Viva MI Pro!

when there are no shops left to demonstrate the products which people then go on the web to purchase, what will hapen then??
there are fewer andd fewer drum stores and hi tech stores, now, that internet has taken the margin out of that business, then the keyboard business is following fast, what next?
guitars?
where will it end if there are no places left for people to try before they buy?

Just for the record, I have posted a few times prior to today as "Richard". I run Richards Guitars and use "Richard" as my heading when posting here too. Could I just confirm that I am NOT the Richard posting in this thread!!

Telling people that they must have been dropped on their head at birth sounds like the kind of comment I would expect from my industry but not one that I want to take credit for.

Carry on guys!

Not fulfilling critera Mr. L??? Methinks he's getting found out....
Nothing to do with retail failing, just Reverb and either appallingly short sighted management or, more disturbingly, very clear minded and cynical, and it sickens me. Exactly how much is the Leicester store worth to sell? Similar to Sheffield?
Good luck lads, you deserved better than you have had for the past 17 months, hope you get sorted, it'll work out, at least you'll be out of it all at last.

@terry : Couldn't agree more with the lifestyle business assessment. I knew there some people in the industry who actually got it.

Also I do not think the internet business selling things such as Ernie Ball strings for what it costs me to buy them, isn't the model to follow or for that matter necessary to even consider when retailing online. Simple do not sell EB online or for that matter any product when you know the market is trashed.

@guitarman : There is absolutely no conflict of interest. If you think there is then you have a problem. Its like saying that somebody who loves a particular brand of guitar and sells the very same brand in their store has a conflict of interest.

Also if you are going to google me, use the correct spelling of my name. I very well may be barking mad, but this your 5% figure is bogus, and even if it were true it simply proves the point that online market is of huge growth potential.

For those who think selling off the property is wrong (and maybe it is) but at least there is a strategy there. Which can't be said of many people. It may be prudent for everybody to take stock and analyse why selling/leasing back the property is a more prudent option than actually running the retail store.

As we have done with Sound Control and Reverb Sheffield, the MIA is here to be of service to Reverb Leicester staff (and anyone else for that matter). We will hold cv's of any affected staff so that anyone with vacancies in MI can then contact me for information at paulmc at mia dot org dot uk

As we have done with Sound Control and Reverb Sheffield, the MIA is here to be of service to Reverb Leicester staff (and anyone else for that matter).

We will hold CVs of any affected staff so that anyone with vacancies in MI can then contact me for information at paulmc@mia.org.uk.

Jack, you told us to look at your website – how else was I meant to find you?

Sory about the "n" in place of the "m" – simple typing error and didn't spot it.

(better than "sail" for "sale" though, isn't it... ouch)

I had been watching the development of this thread and felt the need to comment on the "lifestyle" comment by Mr, Tibbs.
I used to work in the model (Airfix, Hornby, etc.) business. As with the music industry - especially guitars -, the model industry was also plagued with enthusiasts trying to trade when if fact they had no chance because their enthusiasm was greater than their business acumen.
Undoubtedly, the Reverb matter is probably more to do with a long-term plan as mentioned by Mr. Tibbs, rather than any short-term expectations.
Many of the MI problems are due to enthusiasts' ("lifestyle"http://www.mi-pro....onal) misguided efforts to be "in the trade" when in fact they are actually contributing to the demise of retail shops, i.e. internet trading from suburban bedrooms.
I am now about to replace a set of bronze-wound acoustic strings on an electric guitar, the strings having been supplied by one of these internet enthusiasts as being correct for this instrument.

When is someone going to charge Mr L with crimes against the MI Industry? And Jack... the answer to the problems on the High Street is not to get rid of the High Street!

Down with the internet!!!! Yeah!!!
Retailers against the Net.................a new political party???? Maybe........

Sorry Richard... I thought I had the copyright. Please expect a letter from my solicitor ;) and just for the record. I didn't do the dropping.

Although this used to be a thread about Reverb closures (and I wish all the best to the staff who probably did their very best to make it work), it seems to have turned into a hotly debated internet vs bricks 'n' mortar argument. So I'll bung my tuppence worth in.

As a few people have stated above, there is (in my opinion) room for both. And indeed a need for both, either as stand alone entities or a shop/website combo.

For example, if I want a packet of super slinkys, I know what they're like, I don't need to try them out and irrespective of where they come from they'll be a packet of super slinkys. If I don't need them right now and can wait a couple of days (and can't be bothered to go out) then the internet is great.
However, if I want a new guitar then that's a different thing altogether. Even if I know what make and model I want ('coz my mate's got one), then I still need to go and see and feel the one I'm going to get. As anyone will know, three identical models of any given guitar will not necessarily feel or play the same. This is where bricks 'n' mortar are still needed; not as an e-tailer's showroom, but where you might try something out AND (dare I say it) buy it as well.
When was the last time any of you bought a car/house/other expensive thing on-line WITHOUT seeing the thing in the flesh first?
Therein lies my point - websites are great, I use them all the time for certain things, but I also use shops and would hate to see the total demise of them (MI or otherwise).
Neither are better or worse and there is a place and need for both.
There. Fence well and truly sat on.

Well said Cog, I'm sat with you. Here ends this thred.

i think we'd all be bettter of in a communist state!!!
no need to worry bout the internet then cause you'd all be locked up!!! and bricks and mortar would win and we'd all be at the same price.........Cmon...!

I wish some people would read what I am actually saying. I am saying that there is indeed need for both the high street and the internet - Not death to the High Street or for that matter the internet is the way to go either.

My point is for the high street to be successful and useful, it is the internet that feeds it business, i.e. the real store has a symbiotic relationship to the online store. The fact is that local business is drying up, and even in a large city there are only so many people you can sell a guitar to etc.

You can make many more sales online than you ever could in even a large store, but for those items that generally aren't really suitable for direct online sale. You can channel that business in to Bricks n Mortar that isn't designed to be your store to be everything to everybody it is designed to service the aforementioned business.

I will point you to Apple Retail, they make roughly £5000 per square foot, per hour in the UK. There Regent Street store has foot traffic of over 200,000 people per day rising to nearly 300,000 at peak season, even a modest regional store has traffic of upwards of 100,000. They had a website first (in-fact they were one of the first companies in the world to sell online) then High Street second but it is the online store that channels a good proportion of this business.

This cant be happening...Right here in the pages of MI Pro AL stated that he was going to make Reverb the leading retailer in our industry by the end of 2009.
If its written here it must be true so watch this space for the best comeback since Rocky.

My heart goes out to the Will, Rae and the guys at Leicester.
A great bunch of people. I know what you must be going after first hand experience of it last year.
Keep your heads up and im sure you'll all land back on your feet in no time.

Look let's get this straight ! it's retailing wannabes with laptops sat in there mummys kitchen dropping their pants on products thats potentially putting all bricks and mortar to its doom!!! We know who these people are they just need closing down!!.....Who' s with me then????

perhaps HMRC might take the time and trouble to investigate just how much revenue is not being collected from laptop wielding E"tailers.
Come on Mr. Brown, think. And, if suppliers only supplied to legitamate bricks and mortar outlets then perhaps more of us could stay in where customers could at least see the goods they are paying for before they part with there hardearned.

If they're 'wannabes' then why are they a problem? By definition that means they're not successful.

...But they clearly are successful and they're here to stay.

Competition is fact of life and it tends to be the losers who can't be bothered to get off their backsides and take it on that moan about it.

You can't just shut a business down because it's inconvenient competition for you. That's tantamount to murdering a 'love rival'! I'm also confused as to how you would go about this, but, similarly, any method would invariably be somewhat illegal.

You can however challenge it at its own game and if you're good enough, you can legitimately take away some of its business. If not, maybe you should think about a different career.

@russ : Quite true, and I aren't in that category for the record. And I would like nothing better than to get rid of the idiots selling items for less than what it cost me to buy them, or very at the very least educate them on the need for a business to make money - the whole lifestyle business argument appears at that point I think.

However its a free market, there is very little we can do. The suppliers could do something, but the government would bring the anti-competition laws into the mix. Basically there are things that are no longer profitable to think about stocking.

To be fair it would be a gigantic effort, to get many of the UKs retailers in a room at talking. Even if we are arguing like here on this thread.

I think it would do the industry a whole lot of good if we had an open forum to discus these issues, face-to-face. Maybe a yearly conference of sorts?

Text on the Reverb web site home page.
"Join the community"
Would that be the unemployed community by any chance?

My two penneth!

I would be interested in who developed the website for Reverb. It must be one of the trashiest sites I have ever seen - well maybe picking chicken or randy rooster wins that one? Grotesque black, purple and green if I remember right? Don't you just love web designers!

Anyway - From an outsiders perspective "Reverb" seemed (is it past tense yet?) to have a total conflict of identity online vs in store. That is possibly my point. Where do Reverb fit? Online? Nope - there are others doing what they do so much better (judging my their dreadful site) and in store? Well not sure but I can tell you the only time I ever hear their name mentioned is for deals on end of line products/sales. Never once heard a customer say "Reverb are great for..."vyvbYFWc

agree with hp sauce, a l a bloody menace ! just messing about