MI Pro

Have I got this quote right?
“We feel this will be a win/win situation for the customer and for the supplier," said Thomann.
Presumably the customer is the end user and the supplier is Thomann?....answers on a postcard please!

Oh ****. Just when we thought that next year was looking viable. Maybe it's time for us independents to desert a sinking ship.

Will we look back on today as being the good times?

Another nail in the coffin for the small retailer in the UK with more money leaving these shores into already rich beyond beleif German pockets.
Come UK distributors get your act together as a team and stop Thomann now as you will be the ones to suffer ultimately.
Check out all those trading agreements for distribution rights within the UK because their stock will be coming in the back door from Europe and the US cutting out UK distributors.
Whichever way you look at it Thomann will never be a British retailer, stop them now.

Hahahahahahahahaha!
I love it, love it, love it!
It certainly will be a 'win / win' situation for the customers.
Whilst everyone was rubbing their hands with glee at the thought of Sound Control going down the pan, good old Thomann snuck in through the back door.
Unless retailers start working together, providing good service and stop trashing products' selling prices on the street, uncle Hans will be dominating in 2 years time.
As a customer of music shops, I welcome it all - if only for the increase in quality of service we'll recieve.

Well guess sound control weren't that bad afterall. I'm already sick of people telling me they can get it cheaper at Thomann. But at least their postage costs will have to increase if they are dealing in the UK. Lets see how they like our rates and VAT and everything else that makes running a company in this country nigh on impossible. And ofcourse I suppose our government will be giving them big tax incentives to come over here!

Whilst a lot of you fellow retailers will be upset by the news, do not feel despondent as it really is not a lot different to having a Sound Control or Turnkey in our midst! You must remember that all of those UK distributors and manufacturers who previously got financially hurt will most certainly rethink their positions as to supplying another giant and a warehouse is vastly different to a retail premises. I believe it would have been far worse had they taken on the Sound Control shops.Yes the industry is changing significantly this year but us smaller independents can generally offer a much better and more personal service than a superstore. Keep doing what you do well and I am sure you will prevail.

I don't want to sound like nostradamus,but I predicted this would happen three years ago. Only I thought that it would be from the far east & cripple the entry level market for the music retailers,now this will be at all levels & all branded goods.Oh for a lottery win! good night A.

How are the UK music suppliers going to support the independent music retailers through this next onslaught? Unfortunately it seems to me that unless the British government looks long and hard at the current situation and comes up with legislation to control prices, independent retailers (not just music retailers) have two to five years at best....yes, there are things we can do, but the internet will slowly erode all but the hardiest of us. Whilst ever a 'consumer' can sit at his/her computer and in a couple of clicks find the lowest price in the country/Europe there will be no margin left to service the cost of running a business. Not only this but the bottom price will always be a trade price (or lower!) as desperate retails try an turn stock over in an attempt to pay the increasing running costs. Support the local independent retailer or lament his demise.

So, more Chinese crap cabinets and other gear coming in to the country.
As if the poor end-user in the UK hasn't been submitted to enough of a barage of junk they'll now be able buy direct from another bunch of faceless cardboard box shifters.
This is NOT how to sell pro-audio equipment and with any luck this regime will eventually go the way of Sound Control.

Well what a surprise, rumours are mounting in the north west that Dawsons MD David Briggs and FD Stewart Smith are in talks with both Thomann, MRH (The Norwegians) and Dolphin. Thomann and MRH must be considered to be the favourites especially as Smith would prefer to preserve as many jobs as possible particularly his Head Office team.However this would give the foreign purchasers a huge opening into England, and a entrance into UK Suppliers (not that they're are so many left)

Retailers..you are right now being Undercut by schools..Teachers...Studios...PA Installers etc even local government supported 'music Schools' who you directly support via your rates are your competitors..why are you complaining about Thoman now? Some British suppliers have been slowly strangling the small music retailer for at least a decade!. Some companys have been supplying Argos, Bookstores, Esso garages and the like for years without a peep from you! You know who they are and yet you continue to purchase from the very companys who have been quite willing to damage their industry for short term game while claiming to be expanding the market place The rot set in long ago..Stop moaning and Start buying from those companys who have made real efforts to support the independants there are still plenty of them and they need your support as much as you need theirs if you don't know who they are maybe you should not be a music retailer.

Re Comment 5
Idiot.
Thomann and their ilk are the very people who are forcing margins down to the bone and have caused huge damage to good shops in the UK and Eire particularly.
Pile it high and sell it cheap is equivalent to slash and burn agriculture.
So what is your idea of good service?
Trying before buying?
(I bet you're one of those nasty little s**ts who will spend hours trying gear in a shop and then buy on line)
Being able to return something you don't like?
If you do you get gouged on carriage and deductions for such things as a damaged box...try reading their Terms of Trading sonny.
So if you have a problem you need sorting do you catch a flight to Germany?
Will they set up your guitar over the phone?
Can you get a top E string at 5 o'clock on a saturday out of your printer?
No to all the above?
Well that's what GOOD shops provide over here...good service.
Websites don't.

Love to know what Dolphin , Gear4music etc are making of all of this!
Any comments guys?

Love to know what Dolphin , Gear4music etc are making of all of this!
Any comments guys?

This was always going to happen at some point as we all know they have been doing business here for some time from Germany. Make no mistake they will be intending to clean up all before them too, they sure won't be coming here for no holiday...

They have a very good guy in Rupert Pfaff too, he knows his onions make no mistake!

It's an open playing field if they do only buy from UK sources which I'm sure they will, they have massive backup though, that's where they'll be strong.

Will this situation allow Thomann to capitalise on the fluctuation of currency? I assume historically Thomann has been appealing to the UK consumer because of the strength of the the pound. Now I can imagine the UK is appealing to Thomann because of the strength of the Euro when buying from UK distributors. Whichever way they have a way to benefit - I may be wrong as I don't know a lot about this but Uk only companies could be disadvantaged.

Another thought...is this any different to imuso?

Lets face it, the face of selling instruments etc to the customer (retailing?) is changing. All we have to do is find a way to sell our experience and expertise to the customer....tenner to change your strings guv?

anyone else just wish that thomann would **** off?

yep'

Well, I am glad I have decided to ditch my high street premises, the agents boards will be here later this week. The costs are too high, and the margins too low to make any money. I do provide an excellent service, but favours and goodwill do not pay the bills.
I am going back to my previous career of surveying to pay the bills, and moving my music business to an online accessories operation. I am not complaining, I am doing something about it.

Well said comment 12. Its about time the independent retailer recognised which hand feeds and which hand bites!!
but it is not all gloom and doom,there is still a strong independent retail presence in Germany and other mainland European countries selling product supplied by distributors like minded!!

Those independant music stores out there should seriously look at one of the buying groups in the UK such as the Firm or Euromusic to help them maintain a working margin on products. There will always be a place for the independant music store, so we must not let the Thoman's of this world get to you.

Re: Comment 13 & Fourstring.

Thanks for the support - having recently been made redundant from Sound Control, I find that attitdue towards someone you no doubt know quite harsh.

I was commenting on the fact that the industry as a whole was (and still is as far as I am concerned) too preoccupied with the demise of competitors (competition breeds business) to step the game up a level, close ranks and make themseleves indispensible as opposed to showing a foreign competitor that there is a gap in the market.

Now that my place of employment has gone, I now have to get my gigging supplies from the local independant. It was a major shame to see when I went in that nothing had changed attitude wise. If it was me, I would have seen the opportunity of SC closing in town as a chance to clean up.

I reckon Rupert will do well with Thomann in this country - you never know, it may be the catalyst that the industry needs!

I long ago started an online business, supplying a fairly narrow range of products. I think Thomann is deservedly successful, and I think anyone who's positive about running a business is likely to be successful. However, as soon as we see someone doing something successfully, the whinging breaks out. Holding back the tide won't work, whinging about it will just piss off your customers. Just find something to do that you do well, and accept that things change. We can't go back to a purely high-street, local retail model - as some in this business would seem to want, nor would it meet people's needs. If you're really serious about competing with the likes of Thomann, get together and create a collaborative online / warehouse music shop. Or not. Just stop whining about it!

I have read many of the comments written about Thomann opening in the UK. I say good on them. I have dealt with both the independant retailer in this country and Thomann. As always I will spend my money where I feel that I get the best value for money as a customer. Why buy the same equipment from a UK retailer for the same money with only a years guarantee when you can buy from Germany and get three years guarantee and get it just as quickly.
Also you say more cheap Chinese boxes. Take a look at the place of manufacture of many items of electronics Made in China is usually stamped on the back of many of them. Even if it does say made in the UK doesn't mean most of the component parts weren't purchased from China or the far east.
I myself would be pleased to see Thomann have a UK base. I find their service extremely good.
I have had no trouble with any of the equipment purchased from Thomann and most of it can be bought in the UK badged as other manufacturers for twice the price.
So I'm looking forward to them opening.

As a small independant retailer (not a whinger) who got off my arse and started my own business three years ago for all the right reasons to provide a good service to local drummers, I say to all you who have not put their money where their mouth is, when you buy online from anyone you are basing your decision on the fact that you have seen and tried in the flesh from your local music store, it helps you clic that button! What the consumer fails to see is the long term effect of these decisions, they don't understand that it is not a level playing field in terms of buying price, there is no such thing as trade price anymore and the small shops cannot compete on price because they can't buy in bulk, the big players know this, that's why they are using us as FREE showrooms.
So don't moan to me when you can't go and try out your dream guitar or drum kit and talk for an hour at the counter gleening every bit of FREE info you can from your friendly local expert, cause if you continue with your current strategy what you will be left with is TescoThomann'r'us.com with no competition and then watch their prices go up and up!!!! Your local music retailer is usually pretty passionate about his business, but if he is not valued any more then why should he bother to provide this great service to an increasingly delusional consumer!! Sound Control came to my town 3 years ago all guns blazing, and the sheep flocked in and gave them their money and the suppliers gave them their goods(cheap),3yrs down the line the suppliers are owed millions in bad dept and the sheep are flocking back and looking guilty and complaining of lost deposits! And me I have to smile and say never mind I'm still here to put it right..just! (licking my wounds) Do you know what we can't all take over the world!! But Thomann are gonna try!!
Wake up UK cause europe won't come to our aid like we came to theirs. did anyone watch Eurovision!!!!!
Can't believe I'm writing this, it's my first official rant!!

Thomann are coming. Big deal. So the pan Eurpean distribution model is not all that it is cracked up to be then? I presume there was not quite the potential growth either.

Like I so succesfully predict other things I will offer you this. They will open here and soon discover the work ethic in the UK is not quite the same (eg we all want to go home at 5pm which they dont. Ask anyone at Behringer or Warwick).

The costs and style of running a business here is different from Germany and they will have to compete more on a level playing field.

However....as you will notice they are more and more heavily in to own brand gear which happens to be quite decent and excellent value. This is where the problem for us may be as he will use a good quality brand like Yamaha for instance to sit along side his own brand to give it credibility. This is exactly the same tactic used by Richer Sounds.

As for suppliers, most of them in the long term also have no great wish for the tail to be wagging the dog.

It is up to us retailers in this country, Thomanns competitors, to run our stores well and succesfully market them along with good service. Also explore opportunities and stop selling brand x or whatever because it is an easy sale or its what you played 20 years ago.

Anyway Germany seems to have plenty of independent dealers!

Re comment 27,
Adam says he will spend his money where he feels he gets the best value for money. Sound advice. He has bought equipment from Thomann (presumably at an incredibly low price) and had no problems with it. This is not value for money. This is buying equpiment cheaply.

Surely value for money would take in the wider picture, i.e.: How you arrive at the particular product to buy (hopefully through advice from your local shop), and more importantly what kind of after service you receive - particularly if something goes wrong.

I recently changed broadband supplier to a company who could offer me a service seventeen times faster, at a quarter of the price of my previous one. Whilst it worked it was great. When it went wrong, the total lack of decent customer service made me realise my mistake.

However, even after that rant, a though occoured to me:
If Thomann think that there's enough of a gap in the UK market for them to fill, aren't we all missing the fact that there's a Thomann sized hole in the market that we could all be filling?

The only reason Thomann as a company has worked so well is because they've got it right. eg better than others in the same business in their own country.
We've all got the same opportunities in business but its how we run our day to day relationships with our suppliers and customers building up a good strong reputation.
I'm not worried about Thomann and I will enjoy the challenge. Big giant against the independent bring it on
Gill S

" We've all got the same opportunities in business "
what utter rubbish .

I speak from experience 20 years had nothing could not raise £100 from a bank

I just worked towards strong relationships, If you think opportunities are not the same, then you must be standing behind the counter with your arms folded waiting for the customer to walk in to your store with super inflated prices scratching your head why your business is failing

smell the coffee compete and do things different or get out its simple. Competition is good for business


Come on in Thomann I look forward to it

Gill

As a small independent retailer who has been in mi for almost 30 years, I think this is great news.
I have been on their site today and have seen nothing to worry about.
Their prices are nothing special and there are many Uk retailers offering better deals. Add to this vat, delivery costs as mentioned by an earlier comment, I fail to see how they will hurt me.
All the larger shops will be full of doom and gloom where as I will continue to offer my service for my price.
I was always told not to worry about anybody elses business but look after my own.
I pay £150.00 a week rent for my shop, I have 1 part time kid on a weekend... I think I can survive.
you lot fight it out and I will see you all for a drink in another 30 years.

Happy Seller

Horray I totally agree this is good news it's not just me then
thats looking forward to a new challenge
will be there for that drink too

if they have to pay british taxes, pay the same rent and rates that no-one can these days afford.

Then fill up the car....

they'll soon bugger off back to where they came (if they had any sense)

I thinkk you are forgetting that they are currently buying from europe at prices that refelect the strenth of the pound/euro. This will give them access to UK prices and europe prices and allow them to mix and match depending on where they can get the best deal.

think again People, Thomann will be Thomann. Good service and undercutting everyones prices. They will Take the Margin out of all products and bring the UK industry to its legs.

...Many moons ago one of the biggest brands of headphone - ROSS- decided to support the box shifters, from back in the day, such as Argos and Woolworths and withdrew their services to the Independant trade for no reason other than that they saw the dollar signs appear for high volume, low margin turnover. The only reason Argos et al were able to sell ROSS headphones in volume was because all the independants had given ROSS good "High street" kudos.......... within a few years, after consistent Independants "de-briefing" of the ROSS brand - ie Q- what do you think of the ROSS brand of headphones Mr Independant?" - A- "well we don't stock them anymore because in our expert opinion the are not as good as they used to be...." the brand lost it's kudos and completely disappeared ...... it's up to the independants to play the game and support the brandnames that support the independant industry......the M I is a cottage industry and needs to stay so, else before long you'll have Tesco's looking at it and Thomman will be a mere drop in the ocean..... Good luck to all you independants, (concerned MI sales Rep)

On the 29th of April...the night before the demise of SoundControl I was having a beer with the MD of a major uk distibutor... who had been told by his German office that Jason from Dolphin had been seen 2 days before in Germany with the Thomann guys discussing this very subject... ummmm.

Never in the course of MI retailing history has so little been earned by so many because of the few.
(With apologies to WC)

I have sole UK distribution agreements for our products.
We are not allowed to sell outside of the UK.
I've got a piece of paper with that written on it.
Our European colleagues likewise are not allowed to sell outside of their respective countries....they also have pieces of paper...legally binding contracts I believe they're called.
Not worth a toss now and our suppliers won't go near legal action to prevent our products being shipped to the UK from Germany as under EU law that is perfectly legal.
(Tears up 'Sole Rights' Contracts)

So what do we do? Tell 'em to get lost and give the business to Germany...we lose, UK dealers lose.
Supply them and piss off our UK dealers but at least keep some control over the price (maybe) and deliveries?
UK dealers lose some that way but a lot less than the first option.
Possibly their market share won't increase on branded lines...they seem keen to push their house brands?
I dunno how this will pan out...probably not as bad as the current knee-jerks would suggest.
Times...they are a-changing.

Anyone checking prices right now will notice that Thomann is actually more expensive than DV. So much for Thomann driving the price down in Europe!!

It all depends on what products you look at.
Some of ours were being chopped by around 30% from UK RRP.
I also note that some Euro-retailers show what appear to be inflated UK RRPs to indicate an even bigger discount.
Tricky lot.
The bottom line is that overheads for all types of businesses are flying up wherever they are so good margins are vital for both suppliers and retailers.
If suppliers have learnt anything at all from the Sound Control crash it's don't get seduced by Big Orders at Low Margins...but I doubt it.
Clearly that policy does NOT work.

Imagine my surprise when I bowled into the shop this morning after a day off to discover the news that Thomann are pitching up in the UK. My initial reaction was oh bugger, but then I thought why do we react that way? Don't we all tend to over react in these situations, a bit like sulking when the new kid at school elbows his way in to your game of football uninvited. Just opening our doors in the morning doesn't give us the right to expect people to flood in and give us their money. We have to earn it. Yes, it's tough out there, but that's when we have to get inventive and offer a service that is second to none. We must all remember Sounds Musical/UK Pianos who were the bain of everyones life a few short years ago, well they were my local competitors and thay caused us no end of grief, as they did the industry as a whole, well they are no more and we are still here having experienced continual growth for nearly two years...it really isn't rocket science, and who else has noticed over the past few months that discerning customers are beginning to wise up to the internet thing as more and more people have bad experiences, we can, in a subtle and informative way, educate our customers, that is why we are specialists, we have a duty to them, they do not have a duty to us just because we open up every day. There will always be those who just want a price and not an experience, and I actively encourage them to spend their money elsewhere (you'd be surprised how many come back eventually), but there will always be those who value us, not least the guy who has a gig on saturday and pops in for strings at five o'clock, and no, of course we can't survive on that alone, but we can carve out a good niche for ourselves. There are some good products out there with good margins, we don't have to stock the biggest selling guitar starter pack with a margin of £1.94....Anyone ever thought of charging for a demo and then deducting it from the selling price if they buy it from you...? Not sure of the legal ramifications of that one, but I'm sure someone will tell me. Thomann have vast resources, they will not go away, we have get used to them, accept them for who they are, and make sure we tailor our businesses to offer something different from them.
Bring it on....

Excellent thread, ladies and gents. Quite excellent.

Re Thomann. I keep reading this word "service". Is this the service you get from a mail order company (which is the carriers service, not theirs". Or is it the service where if you pay a small amount more (not always so) to a local retailer, if it goes wrong , you can go in to the shop at 9.30 on saturday morning and get something done about it? Or the sort of service wher the child has a flute which won't play but needs it for that night for the school concert? Or the sort of service where someone can't remember the piece of music but can sing it to you? Or! I bought this guitar on the net but I can't tune it up. And! can you show me how this mixer works? I didn't but it from you but I used to deal with you often and I still buy my strings from you.

Sorry Mr Thomann your service is a sham, your supply is good but is based on the efficiency of your carrier. You guarantee items providing they can be returned to you "does everyone keep the boxes?" and can you actually alter the set on the guitar over web?
The big sellers rely totally on the independants all over the country for Demo's, back up, advice and general help. The trade needs the independant, Tell em just that! Cheers G

Look, i understand the issues here, but we have realise that Germany has a perfectly healthy independant music retail sector too.
Its easy for people to say, but basically all retailers, distributors and manufacturers have to look at the way they do things. it wont stop changing. Many UK independants are doing really well, some not so well; but those retail leaders didnt have it given to them on a plate, and their not necessarily big multiples either.
Its a bit scarey, but there is nothing stopping any UK dealer offering the same service etc as Thomann or MusiK Productiv.
Those retailers, distributors etc who offer the correct level of service and products will be fine i am sure.
Choose products wisely - as Thomann will not have everything - and give your customers a reason to stick with you.

I hear that Pat Kelly is behind the Thomann deal. He's already screwed the whole industry once and is coming back to have another go......

There's that word again service and level of service. Every shop in the country can send stuff by efficient carrier. That is the level of service given on delivery not retail service over the counter. Not face to face service. Not guarantee, not problem solving. Not demonstration. Not advice. Just and only stock and delivery. Thomann ,,great on stock ,great on delivery,,can you have a demonstration . NO! Now do you see. Cheers G

no mention of the weak ££ against the euro as a reason to buy in the uk then ???

or am I a cynic ??

post 49...
I commented as such in post 17 but I am not an expert so I was merely posing the question; I do think as it stands Thomann are not as much of a current threat as they were a year ago due to the strength of the currency. By being able to buy from the UK it may give them a better margin for UK sales in the meantime. In the long term it will offer them a UK base for sales here of products purchased in Euros should the pound regain its strength. I am not certain that distributors and manufacturers can restrict inter-EU sales as part of EU legislation and this will give those with both UK and Europe operations a strong advantage; they simply have to replace power leads and offer the warranty as they have been doing. As I said in the second post - is this any different to imuso who are a German mammoth with UK operations?